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Revelation Series #61: The False Woman Babylon
Previous post: Revelation Series #60: Refuse “Spiritual Interpreters”
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{ 26 comments… read them below or add one }
David;
I pray for wellness and peace for you as you go through this warfare with those who are kept from seeing and knowing what you write; but some of us get it! Thank-you David. I understood all that you wrote even before you had to break it down for others to hopefully see a great thing. I truly can identify with the Word of God and how it is applied through the Christ in me.
I truly do see that Our Father may have blinded the eyes of those who would rather believe in error then truth, who put their faith in man above the Word of God. But this is how we are exercised. Yet; many can not understand, that in order to be established in The Truth this needs to be.(We are to prove all things)! This has indeed been my walk that I certainly can identify with. This is what I too experience through trials that I am taken through, as we are being tested and proved. Martin also speaks of this, but many do not even listen to him. These are the Works that go with our Faith to produce fruit, at least for those of us who are IN CHRIST!
God never creates or is pleased with heresy – for heresy is a lie about God.
Paul is simply saying that there are going to be heresies, and that God must allow them. Why does God allow heresy, heretics, and false teaching in His church? He tells us: In order that the genuine article might be proven …or built. For example, how do you know two plus two equals four? Probably because you were taught that it does — and you accepted it. But if someone comes along claiming that two plus two equals five, now you are going to have to prove two plus two equals four. Because you are faced with error, you must prove the truth – and if you do, your knowledge and faith that two plus two equals four will be strengthened. Being faced with error was therefore an opportunity to prove the Truth.
When a person who believes the Truth is faced with error – or when a person who believes error is faced with the Truth – they have a choice. Do we want to know Jesus Christ? If so, God will give us more than information. He will give us revelation. He will not only expose any error we believe, but He will expose the unbelief that is in our hearts that gave place for it. We will be made genuine – made true unto God. And if we already believed the Truth, our faith will be strengthened all the more because the Truth upon which it is built will be proven all the more. There must be heresies – they are allowed by God so that we might be given cause to seek the Truth in Christ. This is where I take my comfort; Peace be with you greatly David; Thank-you, In Jesus Name Alexandria.
David,
I would actually like to continue discussing this subject with you, but not on Martin’s website. What’s your email address? Or are you on Facebook, perhaps?
Aaron
Dear Aaron.
My email address is.
dwcjbuckman@westnet.com.au
Cheers.
David.
Thanks, David.
Your inbox should have a message from me. Looking forward to a good discussion.
Aaron
Aaron.
Did you receive my reply?
I cannot find it in the sent items.
It is not in the delete items either.
Please confirm you received two replies.
And send me your email address.
It is gone also.
Cheers.
David.
I hope the good folks who just enjoy Martin’s teachings never see the silly bantering that goes on or if they do see it, can weed through the ridiculous posts of certain people and recognize their agenda. When you see posts with links to other websites, that’s a clue.
Rom. 1:22
Not to worry Kathy if we look at Rom. 15:19-20 Paul was ambitious to bring the good news to others but he was careful not to build on another mans foundation the main reason Paul was laying down a new foundation which others did not know. (note there are those who wish to use others to teach what they think the good news is but use other men’s work to do so. Those kind are nothing but common thieves. I like Gal. 1:8-9 even though it doesn’t say it this way I do. If anybody is trying to teach us an evangel besides the one Paul has taught us ignore them because they are full of crap! I don’t mix the evangel given to Paul with the one given to Israel!
George Fisher.
You said;
” Paul has taught us ignore them because they are full of crap! I don’t mix the evangel given to Paul with the one given to Israel!.”
That is because you are a fool.
You have mentioned Romans 5: 20 which the Concordant group avoids like the plague!
That proves you are a fool.
Romans 5: 20 proves “the evangel” given to Paul was “the evangel” sent to Israel
“…Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where “the” sin increases…”
Did you take note of the substantive “the” [“the particular” sin against law]
Only Israel had the law and only Israel could commit “the” sin [offenses against it]
See E.A Knoch Concordant Commentary page 235 commenting on Romans 5: 14 and 20.
“…Here we have the true character and function of the law.It crept in. It was not a “NORMAL NECESSITY,” nor did it make any vital change. Its effect was to alter the character of sin so that it became an “OFFENSE.” E A Knoch.
You see, where “the” sin against the law was committed “the” grace super-exceeds to the Israelites who alone were given the law. That is why the Concordant Group avoid quoting Romans 5: 20. They only quote Romans 5: 15-19 and all stop at verse 19!
Did you also take note of Romans 5: 14?
“…for until “LAW” sin was in the world, yet “SIN” is not being taken into account “WHEN THERE IS NO LAW…”
Take note of E A Knoch’s comment?
“The law was not given to the nations [Knoch thought the nations were non-Israelites] hence “THEY” do not transgress it.”
There it is in plain speech for all to see that E A Knoch’s comments were contrary to his false paradigm teaching of deception, “the two gospels.” One for the Greeks [Gentiles] and one for the Jews.
Once again if you read the Concordant translation of John 7: 35 you will find that the Greeks [Knoch’s “so-called Gentiles”] were in fact “THE DISPERSION OF ISRAEL” in Asia Minor and Europe. James 1: 1 and 1 Peter 1: 1 proves it beyond all doubt!
The only person full of crap here is George Fisher.
Stick to Sunday school and leave “CORRECTION” to those trained by “the spirit of truth” in Paul’s epistles to correct the “UNLEARNED” and “UNSTABLE” Peter spoke of in 2 Peter 3: 16.
Cheers.
David.
First, I could not reply to your comment to me. I wanted to thank you for being respectful, please give the same to George. I agree with him that Paul has a special message. Which is directed to those outside of the Law (a pause in Israel’s history). Before this, Paul speaks to Jews first, Gentiles second, so at that point, they are not equal, though equally blessed. My question to you… when did Paul begin to differentiate his message? I think he did.
Thank you for laying out your history of the Bible & God’s plans. But I disagree with you. Nothing with God is simple. Seed theology portrays that God had to “do something” because Satan “did something”. I disagree with this. If Satan did something, it was part of God’s plan. It’s not like every time someone had sex with the wrong person they ruined God’s plan & He had to re-think everything. Everything IS God’s plan. Just because we all don’t see the big picture does not mean we need to fill in the gaps.
Oh, you are correct, Jesus was sent to only the lost sheep (Israel). THEN because they did not believe, at a certain point, Paul was led to withdraw from Israel and focused only on the Body of Christ, which included only believers. (this is the pause).
If you are saying that believers are part of the 12 tribes? I disagree. I have read many books that claim such but they just do not ring true to me.
I am a gentile saved by grace alone, because Israel did indeed reject their Savior. But He knew they would do this, part of the plan you see….
David I think good things of you & George, because you are trying to work things out. Do you know how many people just don’t care? Or are too self absorbed to even consider such things? Even the fact that we are on this site taking about such… I think that is pretty cool.
Martin is giving us his thoughts on Revelation. Agree or disagree, I think that is pretty nice of him & I want to hear more.
Blessings,
Winnie
George Fischer,
You’re absolutely right (and you’re most definitely not a fool!). Like a parasite, David has been using Martin’s website to promote his own position (and pseudo-gospel) for a long time now, and when one expresses disagreement with him, the fangs come out pretty quickly. He simply can’t stand the idea that others don’t see him as the infallible dispenser of divine truth that he fancies himself to be.
As far as what David said about Romans 5:20, here’s my view: the “sin” to which Paul refers in this verse is the same as “the offense” referred to in the same verse (and which is referred to four more times in vv. 15-18). The law didn’t come in so that the sin/offense *against the law* should be “increasing.” That doesn’t even make any sense. The offense/sin that Paul says “increased” when the law came in is something that obviously existed *before* the law came in (which is, of course, why Paul could refer to it as “increasing,” and not as coming into existence). And what offense/sin “increased” as a result of the law coming in? I believe the context makes it clear that it’s the sin/offense of Adam (Paul refers to Adam’s disobedience both as a “sin” and as an “offense” in the previous verses). Recall that Paul said in v. 19 that it was Adam’s disobedience that constituted “the many” (i.e., his descendents) “sinners.” All of our (humanity’s) sins/offenses – both before and after the law came – are, in a sense, the same sin/offense of Adam, springing from the same nature and being manifested in a multitude of different ways in the life of each descendent of Adam. I like how one commentator puts it: “What was one act of disobedience in the head has been converted into a vital and virulent principle of disobedience in all the members of the human family, whose every act of willful rebellion proclaims itself the child of the original transgression.”
Aaron
Dear Aaron.
Since you misquoted what I said as well as what E A Knoch said I will paste it from the Concordant Translation for accuracy.
David.
Romans 5:12-14.
“…Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned — for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law; nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be…”
That was as clear as Paul could write it?
Romans 5: 19-21.
“…For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just. Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace super-exceeds, that, even as Sin reigns in death, thus Grace also should be reigning through righteousness, for life eonian, through Jesus Christ, our Lord…”
Now we can look at what you said and if need be we can refer back to exactly what Paul said.
Now your statement;
“As far as what David said about Romans 5:20, here’s my view: the “sin” to which Paul refers in this verse is the same as “the offense” referred to in the same verse (and which is referred to four more times in vv. 15-18). The law didn’t come in so that the sin/offense *against the law* should be “increasing.” That doesn’t even make any sense.”
Aaron, that is your belief because it is your personal view [paradigm] in which no one is interested at all. We want to know what both Paul and E A Knoch said!
Let us now read the full statement by E A Knoch.
“…Here we have the true character and function of the law. It crept in. It was not a normal necessity, nor did it make any vital change. Its effect was to alter the character of sin “SO THAT IT BECAME AN OFFENSE.”
Just as Adam’s sin was against God’s expressed command as well as a personal affront to God as well as a misdeed bringing harm on his own head “SO THOSE UNDER THE LAW, BY SINNING AGAINST LIGHT, GREATLY INCREASED THE SINFULNESS OF SIN.
Obedience to the Law would have banished sin and death. Disobedience enhanced “THEIR” power. But “GRACE” not only exceeds the effects of sin…”
Take note:
The “SIN” here mentioned is the “SIN” in the context of the previous verse. [Not Adam’s]
“…Obedience to the Law would have banished sin and death. Disobedience enhanced “THEIR” power. But “GRACE” not only exceeds the effects of [Adam’s] sin, “BUT [also] SUPEREXCEEDS THE OFFENSES OF THOSE UNDER LAW, SO THAT, “NOW” GRACE HAS DETHRONED SIN…”
Let us read your erroneous statement.
The offense/sin that Paul says “increased” when the law came in is something that obviously existed *before* the law came in (which is, of course, why Paul could refer to it as “increasing,” and not as coming into existence). And what offense/sin “increased” as a result of the law coming in? I believe the context makes it clear that it’s the sin/offense of Adam (Paul refers to Adam’s disobedience both as a “sin” and as an “offense” in the previous verses). Recall that Paul said in v. 19 that it was Adam’s disobedience that constituted “the many” (i.e., his descendents) “sinners.” All of our (humanity’s) sins/offenses – both before and after the law came – are, in a sense, the same sin/offense of Adam, springing from the same nature and being manifested in a multitude of different ways in the life of each descendent of Adam. I like how one commentator puts it: “What was one act of disobedience in the head has been converted into a vital and virulent principle of disobedience in all the members of the human family, whose every act of wilful rebellion proclaims itself the child of the original transgression.”
Note well what you said;
“I believe the context makes it clear that it’s the sin/offense of Adam.”
You misquoted both Paul and E A Knoch.
“…Here we have the true character and function of the law. It crept in. It was not a normal necessity, nor did it make any vital change. Its effect was to alter the character of sin “SO THAT IT BECAME AN OFFENSE.”
[1] Just as Adam’s sin was against God’s expressed command as well as a personal affront to God as well as a misdeed bringing harm on his own head
Note well: Knoch separated the two,
[1] The Adamic sin.
[2] And then the under law sinning against the law of Sinai, “THE DECALOGUE” or the marriage vows agreed to by both parties
[2] “SO THOSE UNDER THE LAW, BY SINNING AGAINST LIGHT, GREATLY INCREASED THE SINFULNESS OF SIN.
Now Paul proves my point!
Obedience to the Law would have banished sin and death. Disobedience enhanced “THEIR” power. But “GRACE” not only exceeds the effects of sin…”
Now read exactly what Paul wrote:
[1] “…For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just..”
Yet between these two long periods; Adam and Moses;
“…Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned — for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law; nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be…”
[2] “…Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace super-exceeds,
[3] that, even as Sin reigns in death, thus Grace also should be reigning through righteousness, for life eonian, through Jesus Christ, our Lord…”
Aaron,
Your problem you have the false paradigm view of E A Knoch which filters every word Paul says to make it conform to the false “universalist” paradigm view to include “every creature,” when the facts and Greek grammar prove it is “EVERY DWELLING PLACE” where the kosmos of Israel was scattered in the oikumene [the Mediterranean Region of Paul’s day.
The “MANY” is a quotation from Isaiah 53: 11;
“…He shall see the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant “JUSTIFY MANY” for he will bear [note the personal pronoun] “THEIR” iniquities. See Amos 3: 2
Isaiah 53: 1 says;
“…Who hath believed “OUR” report?”
Certainly not Aaron Welch.
I believe this paradigm view of yours is the “DELUSION” that God gives to all those that reject what Paul said. Peter said the same thing in 2 Peter 3: 16.
Romans 5: 20 is a reference the offenses committed by Israel that were super-exceeded by grace.
When Christ died;
[1] He reversed Adam’s one offense.
[2] He saved Judah-Israel who was mongrelized by the Esau-Edom-Canaanite progeny of the serpent. See Josephus.
He Redeemed His divorced wife from the “CUTTING OFF” from the olive tree.
This was the irreversible penalty of the law of Sinai, which legally was enforced because of the marriage vow offenses.
Let E A Knoch tell you once more?
“…Here we have the true character and function of the law. It crept in. It was not a normal necessity, nor did it make any vital change. Its effect was to alter the character of sin “SO THAT IT BECAME AN OFFENSE.”
Just as Adam’s sin was against God’s expressed command as well as a personal affront to God as well as a misdeed bringing harm on his own head “SO THOSE UNDER THE LAW, BY SINNING AGAINST LIGHT, GREATLY INCREASED THE SINFULNESS OF SIN.
Obedience to the Law would have banished sin and death. Disobedience enhanced “THEIR” power. But “GRACE” not only exceeds the effects of sin, BUT SUPER-EXCEEDS THE OFFENSES OF THOSE UNDER THE LAW, SO THAT NOW, GRACE HAS DETHRONED SIN.”
Aaron,
That last statement is the evangel;
Let me quote it again;
“Obedience to the Law would have banished sin and death. Disobedience enhanced “THEIR” power. But “GRACE” not only exceeds the effects of sin, BUT SUPER-EXCEEDS THE OFFENSES OF THOSE UNDER THE LAW, SO THAT NOW, GRACE HAS DETHRONED SIN.”
The “secret of the evangel” revealed tom Paul was;
To make this super-exceeding grace available, Yahweh had to cancel Himself out of the highest position in the universe and humble Himself and reappear as a Man and Paul said this emphatically,
“…Let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also, Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging “the” to be equal with God, nevertheless “EMPTIES HIMSELF” [the kenosis according to Knoch] taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the “LIKENESS” of humanity, and being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death,even the death f the cross…” Philippians 2: 5-8.
I do not think is has dawned on you Who it was that expired on the cross. It was “YAHWEH HIMSELF” the Husband of Jacob-Israel in the form of a human. This grace reveals how far He was prepared to go to re-marry the wife He loved.
You disposition is such that you are unable to listen to those who are called and know what they are taking about. Jesus said those that cannot hear His words are not His sheep. See John 8: 42-47.
Paul only wrote what Christ gave him to establish him to write as the [Greek, oikonomos,] administrator to the family of the [grace] favour of Yahweh scattered among the nations of Asia Minor and Europe [the oikumene] of Paul’s day. Ephesians 3: 1-11.
You will have to excuse any typing errors as I has just arrived home from hospital having undergone a bi-lateral indirect inguinal hernia repair on Wednesday and the intense pain is making it very difficult to sit up and type.
Cheers.
David.
Dear Aaron.
Since you misquoted what I said as well as what E A Knoch said I will paste it from the Concordant Translation for accuracy.
David.
Romans 5:12-14.
“…Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned — for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law; nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be…”
That was as clear as Paul could write it?
Romans 5: 19-21.
“…For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just. Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace super-exceeds, that, even as Sin reigns in death, thus Grace also should be reigning through righteousness, for life eonian, through Jesus Christ, our Lord…”
Now we can look at what you said and if need be we can refer back to exactly what Paul said.
Now your statement;
“As far as what David said about Romans 5:20, here’s my view: the “sin” to which Paul refers in this verse is the same as “the offense” referred to in the same verse (and which is referred to four more times in vv. 15-18). The law didn’t come in so that the sin/offense *against the law* should be “increasing.” That doesn’t even make any sense.”
Aaron, that is your belief because it is your personal view [paradigm] in which no one is interested at all. We want to know what both Paul and E A Knoch said!
Let us now read the full statement by E A Knoch.
“…Here we have the true character and function of the law. It crept in. It was not a normal necessity, nor did it make any vital change. Its effect was to alter the character of sin “SO THAT IT BECAME AN OFFENSE.”
Just as Adam’s sin was against God’s expressed command as well as a personal affront to God as well as a misdeed bringing harm on his own head “SO THOSE UNDER THE LAW, BY SINNING AGAINST LIGHT, GREATLY INCREASED THE SINFULNESS OF SIN.
Obedience to the Law would have banished sin and death. Disobedience enhanced “THEIR” power. But “GRACE” not only exceeds the effects of sin…”
Take note:
The “SIN” here mentioned is the “SIN” in the context of the previous verse. [Not Adam’s]
“…Obedience to the Law would have banished sin and death. Disobedience enhanced “THEIR” power. But “GRACE” not only exceeds the effects of [Adam’s] sin, “BUT [also] SUPEREXCEEDS THE OFFENSES OF THOSE UNDER LAW, SO THAT, “NOW” GRACE HAS DETHRONED SIN…”
Let us read your erroneous statement.
The offense/sin that Paul says “increased” when the law came in is something that obviously existed *before* the law came in (which is, of course, why Paul could refer to it as “increasing,” and not as coming into existence). And what offense/sin “increased” as a result of the law coming in? I believe the context makes it clear that it’s the sin/offense of Adam (Paul refers to Adam’s disobedience both as a “sin” and as an “offense” in the previous verses). Recall that Paul said in v. 19 that it was Adam’s disobedience that constituted “the many” (i.e., his descendents) “sinners.” All of our (humanity’s) sins/offenses – both before and after the law came – are, in a sense, the same sin/offense of Adam, springing from the same nature and being manifested in a multitude of different ways in the life of each descendent of Adam. I like how one commentator puts it: “What was one act of disobedience in the head has been converted into a vital and virulent principle of disobedience in all the members of the human family, whose every act of wilful rebellion proclaims itself the child of the original transgression.”
Note well what you said;
“I believe the context makes it clear that it’s the sin/offense of Adam.”
You misquoted both Paul and E A Knoch.
“…Here we have the true character and function of the law. It crept in. It was not a normal necessity, nor did it make any vital change. Its effect was to alter the character of sin “SO THAT IT BECAME AN OFFENSE.”
[1] Just as Adam’s sin was against God’s expressed command as well as a personal affront to God as well as a misdeed bringing harm on his own head
Note well: Knoch separated the two,
[1] The Adamic sin.
[2] And then the under law sinning against the law of Sinai, “THE DECALOGUE” or the marriage vows agreed to by both parties
[2] “SO THOSE UNDER THE LAW, BY SINNING AGAINST LIGHT, GREATLY INCREASED THE SINFULNESS OF SIN.
Now Paul proves my point!
Obedience to the Law would have banished sin and death. Disobedience enhanced “THEIR” power. But “GRACE” not only exceeds the effects of sin…”
Now read exactly what Paul wrote:
[1] “…For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just..”
Yet between these two long periods; Adam and Moses;
“…Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned — for until law sin was in the world, yet sin is not being taken into account when there is no law; nevertheless death reigns from Adam unto Moses, over those also who do not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him Who is about to be…”
[2] “…Yet law came in by the way, that the offense should be increasing. Yet where sin increases, grace super-exceeds,
[3] that, even as Sin reigns in death, thus Grace also should be reigning through righteousness, for life eonian, through Jesus Christ, our Lord…”
Aaron,
Your problem you have the false paradigm view of E A Knoch which filters every word Paul says to make it conform to the false “universalist” paradigm view to include “every creature,” when the facts and Greek grammar prove it is “EVERY DWELLING PLACE” where the kosmos of Israel was scattered in the oikumene [the Mediterranean Region of Paul’s day.
The “MANY” is a quotation from Isaiah 53: 11;
“…He shall see the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant “JUSTIFY MANY” for he will bear [note the personal pronoun] “THEIR” iniquities. See Amos 3: 2
Isaiah 53: 1 says;
“…Who hath believed “OUR” report?”
Certainly not Aaron Welch.
I believe this paradigm view of yours is the “DELUSION” that God gives to all those that reject what Paul said. Peter said the same thing in 2 Peter 3: 16.
Romans 5: 20 is a reference the offenses committed by Israel that were super-exceeded by grace.
When Christ died;
[1] He reversed Adam’s one offense.
[2] He saved Judah-Israel who was mongrelized by the Esau-Edom-Canaanite progeny of the serpent. See Josephus.
He Redeemed His divorced wife from the “CUTTING OFF” from the olive tree.
This was the irreversible penalty of the law of Sinai, which legally was enforced because of the marriage vow offenses.
Let E A Knoch tell you once more?
“…Here we have the true character and function of the law. It crept in. It was not a normal necessity, nor did it make any vital change. Its effect was to alter the character of sin “SO THAT IT BECAME AN OFFENSE.”
Just as Adam’s sin was against God’s expressed command as well as a personal affront to God as well as a misdeed bringing harm on his own head “SO THOSE UNDER THE LAW, BY SINNING AGAINST LIGHT, GREATLY INCREASED THE SINFULNESS OF SIN.
Obedience to the Law would have banished sin and death. Disobedience enhanced “THEIR” power. But “GRACE” not only exceeds the effects of sin, BUT SUPER-EXCEEDS THE OFFENSES OF THOSE UNDER THE LAW, SO THAT NOW, GRACE HAS DETHRONED SIN.”
Aaron,
That last statement is the evangel;
Let me quote it again;
“Obedience to the Law would have banished sin and death. Disobedience enhanced “THEIR” power. But “GRACE” not only exceeds the effects of sin, BUT SUPER-EXCEEDS THE OFFENSES OF THOSE UNDER THE LAW, SO THAT NOW, GRACE HAS DETHRONED SIN.”
The “secret of the evangel” revealed tom Paul was;
To make this super-exceeding grace available, Yahweh had to cancel Himself out of the highest position in the universe and humble Himself and reappear as a Man and Paul said this emphatically,
“…Let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also, Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging “the” to be equal with God, nevertheless “EMPTIES HIMSELF” [the kenosis according to Knoch] taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the “LIKENESS” of humanity, and being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death,even the death f the cross…” Philippians 2: 5-8.
I do not think is has dawned on you Who it was that expired on the cross. It was “YAHWEH HIMSELF” the Husband of Jacob-Israel in the form of a human. This grace reveals how far He was prepared to go to re-marry the wife He loved.
You disposition is such that you are unable to listen to those who are called and know what they are taking about. Jesus said those that cannot hear His words are not His sheep. See John 8: 42-47.
Paul only wrote what Christ gave him to establish him to write as the [Greek, oikonomos,] administrator to the family of the [grace] favour of Yahweh scattered among the nations of Asia Minor and Europe [the oikumene] of Paul’s day. Ephesians 3: 1-11.
You will have to excuse any typing errors as I has just arrived home from hospital having undergone a bi-lateral indirect inguinal hernia repair on Wednesday and the intense pain is making it very difficult to sit up and type.
Cheers.
David.
The Harlot, The Beast and the Fall of Babylon, with scriptures to back who they are!
Even as we too are to prove all things,
Wow; what an eye opener, this man backs up David Buckman’s findings, even of what I know to be true, especially after hearing this. This man has many views I do not agree with in his revelation series, only because he dose not understand, that all that was walked out in the natural by Israel, is now unto a Spiritual Application for those who are in Christ. Each and every generation a people is separated unto God to have a work done within us through Jesus Thee Christ who walked before us, even as we are seated in Him in His victory.
Take a listen from 26 to 42 min in and see who the Harlot truly is, but also who the beast is!
Then see if you too were swayed by mans interpretation of a great thing.
Revelation Chapters 17-18 – The Harlot of Babylon, the Beast, the Fall of Babylon | Steve Gregg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOEDceDS-Tg
David, you may enjoy http://www.pathoftruth.com
They are entering the kingdom, too! At http://www.martinzender.com, we are all a band of pathetic sinners.
ThanksTerry.
I know about Bib and Bub.
http://www.pathoftruth.com
David.
No joke, David…with all your knowledge why not start your own website? Something like, “Paths of Knowledge” or “Paths to Knowledge”.
Isaiah 5:21 and I Corinthians 13:2
How silly of me…you already know these scriptures.
If this shoe fits wear it…”I may not always be right, but I’m never wrong”.
short anecdote; the temple of Zeus was located in Turkish Pergamum, where also satan’s throne will be. After the temple of Zeus was removed from Pergamum to Berlin in 1932, de War broke out, followed by the holocaust.
I have discovered that the islamic Allah is the same guy as the Canaanite God Baal, like the Greek Apollo. While the Jewish God El is surrounded by a council of Gods who honor Him, Baal and Allah do not accept other gods. Pre-islam started not in Mecca but in Petra in Jordany. (Hi from Holland).
Hi Jan,
Great to hear from the Holland [Greek, adelphos, same uterus] brethren!
Actually in John 8: 44 Jesus told them Esau-Edom-Judeans [Jews] their father was the Adversary, NOT “Yahweh the God of Israel.” [His words not mine!]
Yahweh was a father to Israel. [only] 2 Samuel 7: 10-14. 1 Chronicles 17: 13. Isaiah 43: 6. Hosea 1: 10. Romans 8: 16. 8: 19. Revelations 21: 7. 2 Corinthians 1: 1. 2 Corinthians 6: 17, 17.
You are correct El is surrounded by a counsel of [ elohim] god’s. [sons Job 1: 6]
The Septuagint says;
“…When the Most High divided the nations according to the number of “THE ANGELS” of God. And His people “JACOB” became the portion of the Lord, Israel was the line of “HIS INHERITANCE…” Deuteronomy 32: 8, 9. Septuagint.
It was Jacob-Israel that He came to Redeem, [Matthew 15: 24]not a multiracial universal group. See John 1″:10-13. The messenger told Joseph who they were, whom He would Redeem from “THEIR” sins.
“…Now she shall be bringing forth a Son, and He shall be saving His people from their sins..” Matthew 1: 21.
Paul confirms this in Romans 11: 26, 27;
“…And thus all Israel [not every creature] shall be saved, according “AS IT IS WRITTEN,”
Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer.
He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob,
And this is MY COVENANT WITH “THEM”
Whenever I should be eliminating “THEIR “the” sins. [particular sins against the law]
It was only Israel who was given the law. See E A Knoch Concordant Commentary page 235 commenting on Romans 5: 14 and 20?
Yahweh married them. Yahweh divorced them. Yahweh will remarry them. See Romans 7: 1-6. Also see Isaiah 54: 4, where Isaiah said they [Jacob-Israel] would not remember the reproach of their “WIDOWHOOD” any more.
Who was their Husband that died to make them “WIDOWS?
Read carefully Isaiah 54: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.
“…For thy Maker is thine husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole [Hebrew, erets] land [of Israel] shall he be called.
For the LORD called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast [divorced] refused, saith thy God.
For a moment [700 years] have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies I will gather thee [Romans 9: 23-25]
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment [700 years]; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on “THEE,” saith “THE LORD THY REDEEMER.”
What do you make of the two Scriptures that say that there are some people who will never be resurrected?
“…And I will make drunk her princes, and her wise men, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men, and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, “AND NOT WAKE”, saith the King whose name is the LORD of Hosts…” Jeremiah 51: 57.
“…For we [Hebrews = Israelites] “WHICH HAVE BELIEVED” do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the “kosmos” =Society…” Hebrews 4: 3.
The first reference covers all who are under the heading of “Babylon,” which in connection with Revelation, we see all who are opposed to Israel. The second reference covers all those “ISRAELITES” that God sent into the wilderness to perish forever [the eons] because of their refusal to believe Him.
Will you really run the risk of being among this group by twisting Paul’s epistles and the rest of the scriptures to your own self destruction?
In Romans 9: 27 Isaiah prophesied concerning Israel,
“…If the number of the sons of Israel should be as the sand of the sea, the residue [remnant] shall be saved, for a CONCLUSIVE AND CONCISE ACCOUNTING THE LORD WILL BE DOING ON THE EARTH…”
Therefore the Romans 11: 26 statement of “ALL ISRAEL” shall be saved can only mean believers out of “ALL THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL” both in “Judea” and those in the dispersion in “Asia Minor and Europe.” [Holland etc.]
The Concordant teaching that “ALL” always means “ALL” of every creature is false. It is always the “ALL” in the context at hand!
We must be like the Berean’s and test their opinions against the Scriptures, or join them in the coming destruction. 2 Peter 3: 16.
Cheers.
David.
HI Jan.
You mentioned the DIVINE COUNCIL?
The world’s foremost speaker on the “DIVINE COUNCIL” is Dr. Michael Heiser.
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/
Enjoy.
David.
Enjoy? The divine council crap? Really?!! You are more confused up than I thought. You mix & match not only Bible truths to suit yourself, but you also mix in paganism of many sorts. You are some kind of messed up David. Alex, you need to wise up if you are listening to this guy. Please leave this site. Both of you. You are not wanted here anymore. Why? Because this is not your website. Comments are related to the teaching here, not yours. You really have no interest here. You are boring the hell out of me & really starting to piss me off because what you are writing on this site is garbage of the highest degree. Please gather your toys and go home.
Winnie.
Not one word of Scripture from you just your own personal opinions. [crap]
It’s not your site.
You fit the bill that it is useless to argue with a fool. Proverbs 23: 9.
“…Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he [she] will despise the wisdom of thy words…”
“..Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces…” Matthew 7:6
That was spoken by the wisdom of God.
“..But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption…” 1 Corinthians 1: 30.
Well you learnt something listening to Martin’s daily advise! You learned to quote Martins “piss me off stuff.”
“You are boring the hell out of me & really starting to” piss me off.”
H,mmm!
That is because the word of God is quick and powerful and sharp.
“…For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart…” Hebrews 4: 12.
You can do the Russian waltz if you like. I am happy to fellowship with the brethren.
What is the Russian waltz you say?
It is the “PISS-OFF-SHI.”
Cheers.
David.
Not Russian. What brethren are you worshiping with? Most of your biblical verses are written to and referring to Israel. If you know anything of Martin’s teaching you would know why this is weird. I am not attacking you personally. You think too highly of yourself if you think that. What I am attacking is your audacity of your use of scripture. What I am attacking is “why are you here?” & “what is your point”? I don’t need to “battle” you with scripture, don’t feel the need to ‘touche’ here nor there. What concerns me is that YOU feel the need to come to this particular site & express your beliefs, then you expect me or anyone here to defend against yours. Are you so insecure in your belief that you need to belittle mine to feel safe in yours? Let me tell you something. No one. Nothing. I will let none belittle the truth that I KNOW about God, Christ, salvation, my future, the future for all. The God I know & love is SOVEREIGN. Maybe you need to think on that.
Winnie.
I have been a friend of Martin Zender for at least ten years.
How long have you been around? I have been seriously studying with the Concordant group since 1964 when I received my Concordant Translation.
I have also read every book E A Knoch wrote and most of his associates also. I have read and studied the Concordant Commentary to the point I know intimately what E A knoch was teaching, both the “TRUE” and the “FALSE” teaching such as “Pardon for Israelites” and “Justification for non-Israelites.”
And I can articulalte it too;
” Expressing oneself easily in clear and effective language.”
Have you ever read Galatians where Paul is addressing the so-called “GENTILES” among the “GENTILES” that the JEWS would not even eat with? Well, take note what Paul said to those so-called Gentiles of Knoch’s false teaching!
“…Now before the coming of “the” faith “WE” [Knoch’s so-called “Gentiles” among the “Gentiles”] were garrisoned under the law, being locked up together [both the Judean and the Greek Israelites were formerly locked up under the law] for the faith about to be revealed. So that the law has become “OUR” escort to Christ, That “WE” MAY BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH…” Galatians 3: 23, 24.
So much for “PARDON FOR GENTILES?”
You are an unlearned and unstable fool trying to to attack a well trained and well read “watchman,” one of the those “watchman” that has not become a “DUMB-DOG like yourself!
“…His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber…” Isaiah 56: 10.
Well, unless you repent from your false paradigm of systematizes deception you be be gnashing your teeth to the gums when you are locked out of the kingdom of God as one of the “FOOLISH VIRGINS.”
And you should read John 7: 35 in the Concordant Translation.
“…The Jews, then, said to themselves, “Where is He about to go, that we shall not find Him? He is not about to go to “THE DISPERSION OF THE GREEKS AND TEACH THE GREEKS…”
You see the Greeks were Israelites
In the 7th century BC Corinth, like other large Greek cities, began to search out other inhabitable lands and to create colonies abroad. Among the more famous of the earliest Corinthian colonies are Arta which was in what is now northern Greece, Epidamnus which was halfway up the coast of modern Albania on the Adriatic Sea, Corcyra and Ambracia which were on islands in the Adriatic Sea to the west of northern Greece, Syracuse which was on Sicily, which became one of the larger and most famous Corinthian colonies.
Read 1 Corinthians 10: 1-4. Paul said they were Israelites.
“..For I do not want you to be “IGNORANT” brethren, that”OUR” fathers all were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all are baptized unto Moses…”
For you feeble mind, James said ;
“…James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to “THE TWELVE TRIBES IN THE DISPERSION…” James 1: 1.
Peter also wrote to the same dispersion of Israelites.
“…Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the chosen expatriates of “THE “DISPERSION of Pontus, Galatia, [see Galatians 3: 23, 24] Cappadocia, the province of Asia, and Bithynia, “ACCORDING TO THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD,” the Father, in holiness of spirit, for obedience [see Romans 16: 25, 26] and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ…”
You are out of your depth Winnie!
Cheers.
David.
I believe I have known Martin for about 8 years, but what does it matter really. As far as age, it is irrelevant & experience trumps it, however I have been “around” for quite sometime thank you. And it is awesome how God has been patiently teaching me. I don’t get my teaching from Martin! I LIKE Martin for his teaching approach. I never said I agree with him all the time! Does anyone agree always? That would be a cult – um like I don’t agree with you & you have freaked out. How cool is that?
You are quite proud of your resume, I am just at peace with what God continues to open to my heart & mind concerning truth. So if you think I’ve got everything so wrong, you are going to have to take it up with Him. Perhaps you think He is slacking because I don’t agree with you.
I understand your points concerning the scriptures you mentioned. There are many others. See, you really don’t know anything about me, because I actually understand your argument concerning them, but I am going to leave you to sort it out eventually for yourself (has to do with 2 Tim 2:15). Unlike you I do not have a need to belittle your faith status. Speaking of which, how you can consider yourself a friend of Martin’s is beyond me. As the saying goes…with a friend like you who needs….well, you are a smart person, you get it.
I know nothing about you either. I see you as book smart, an intellectual person if you will. Perhaps you are articulate, I am quick on my feet, but not so awesomely good at using scripture to rip apart another human being while using God’s Words to do it. I see you called me a dumb dog. I love animals so I will take that as a compliment.
Yes, I am out of my depth! Cause I’m reaching for the stars baby! Yo Martin!
See you there!
Oh, I forgot David, you need some sort of scriptural retort:
Proverbs 16:18
I am done. Blessing to you. Please just leave this site alone as far as your agenda. “We” are just here to see what Martin has to say about his ideas of interpreting Revelation. You just want to debate your ideas against his. Like I said, get your own site.
Later,
Winnie
Patrick Swayze “Roadhouse” – “Always be nice… until it’s time not to be nice”.
Thanks Winnie.
I am not into opinions at all.
Chapter and verse correctly translated from the Greek and the Hebrew only please. Martin in not interpreting he is quoting Knock’s Unveiling and he has based it upon the false premise of Jews and Gentiles.
The Bible is has a very simple narrative.
It starts with Adam and Eve and their progeny and is contrasted with the Serpents progeny. Genesis 3: 15. By the time you get to Noah, only Noah and his family were perfect in their pedigree.
Yahweh judged those Adamic families for their miscegenation and started again with Noah’s children who became the ten nations and they migrated to Shinar yet before long the miscegenation started all over again.
So God chose one new man, Abram and made the unconditional covenants to him and his seed. It was through Abraham’s son Isaac and his wife Rebecca that two sons were born. Yahweh loved one of them, Jacob yet hated the other son, Esau.Romans 9: 9-13.
Esau became the Edomite nations and miscegenation started all over again. with the Canaanites and the Hittites and daughter Ishmael Esau was cut off for this sin of miscegenation.
Jacob married wife’s from the correct seed line and Yahweh blessed him.
Jacob had twelve sons who became the children of Israel. Yahweh eventually married Jacob-Israel on Sinai and the two parties agreed to the TEN WORDS which were the marriage vows or the [Decalogue]covenant between them. Israel brake these vows before Moses came down from the mountain.
Yahweh had to give them a ceremonial law because of this offense and all future offenses, or kill them because the law of marriage carried a death penalty for offenses against it.
Eventually the nation split into two nations or kingdoms. One was the Ten Tribes, or House of Israel and the other the House of Judah. The “TEN TRIBES” were eventually divorced and “CUT OFF” with no legal way of returning to their Husband while ever He was living.
Judah eventually intermarried with Esau Edom about one hundred and twenty years before Christ came. Theses Edomites had total control of the Temple worship and the affairs of state when Christ came. See Josephus. The kingdom taken from them by Christ see Matthew 21:42-46.
Jesus death saved Judah-Israel, but it Redeemed the “TEN TRIBES” who was the “DIVORCED WIFE.”
A divorced wife could never return to her husband while ever he was living. See Romans 7: 1-6. When the husband dies the wife dies with him yet the woman lives on.
The death of Christ united Judah-Israel and the TEN TRIBES the House of Israel into one new humanity. This is explained by Paul in Ephesians 2: 11-18. This was the true gospel “goof news.”
The secret of the evangel was that Yahweh pitched a tent in human flesh and became a man able to die and Redeem the divorced wife and remarry her again.Philippians 2: 5-8
Hebrews 8: 6-12 proves that all twelve tribes will once again be re-constituted as “THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL” for the new marriage. Hebrews 8: 10.
The false universalist gospel is unknown in both the Old and New Testaments. All those that promote it will suffer destruction for the presence of the Lord. 2 Peter 3: 16.
Jesus plainly said He was not commissioned [Greek, ei me] if not for [apollumi, put away and punished] lost sheep of the House of Israel. [Matthew 15: 24]
Any other gospel is the serpents lie.
Cheers.
David.
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