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Revelation Series #570: Sorry Ideas About Judgment Corrected
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{ 11 comments… read them below or add one }
Zzzzzzzz…Finally a cure for insomnia, thanks!
Robin)
Testing the waters, here … that is, Zender has been kind enough to allow for this “comment” venue, but it’s unclear just how far we in the peanut gallery might be allowed to comment?
So again, I’m hesitantly stepping out here (on thin ice?), and daring to interject yet another comment, or observation based upon something Zender happened to have recently said …
That, at least, must be the minimum requirement for posting any comments; that is, that they have to somehow directly relate so something Zender just talked about … right?
Anyway, here’s my comment or observation … 1Corinthians 15:28 was mentioned, and again, as we’ve all so often been schooled on and about, that lovely verse ending,
“that [the] God may be All in all” (CLNT)
And then Zender went on in his discussions and happened to also relate this to God as our Father.
This seemingly random pairing of thoughts made someting “click” because I know the word endings of this verse, “τὰ πάντα ἐν πᾶσιν” (ta panta en pasin) are neuter … the [things] {3588 T-NPN} all [things] {3956 A-NPN} among/ in {1722 PREP} unto~all [things] {3956 A-DPN} … and I also know, that in the Greek, the words dealing with young children are neuter [things] words. Therefore, I’m now wondering if there isn’t some purposful intent behind this verse’s wording, to not only be talking to the more obvious “all things, all matters, spiritual and earthly” … but also, some smartly Pauline double meaning, along the lines of …”God our Father will be all things among with all of us, as His young children” … That’s the thought that jumped up in my mind, when I heard Zender talk today, I didn’t really focus on what else he said, so it’s very possible that this, my comment is out of line, here, but then again, it’s not exactly clear what this “comment” board is for … Also, just for anyone who happens to be interested, in why my reading of this verse is somewhat different from that found in the CLNT, here’s the nitty-gritty Greek process I used:
15:28* Yet, whenever the all [things] unto~Same should be under-arranged, then also, Same, the Son will be under-arranged unto~the [One] having under-arranged the all [things] unto~Same, so-that the God should be the all [things] among with~all [things].
Ὅταν δὲ ὑποταγῇ αὐτῷ τὰ πάντα, τότε καὶ αὐτὸς ὁ υἱὸς ὑποταγήσεται τῷ ὑποτάξαντι αὐτῷ τὰ πάντα, ἵνα ᾖ ὁ θεὸς τὰ πάντα ἐν πᾶσιν.
hotan de hupotagE autO ta panta tote kai autos ho huios hupotagEsetai to hupotaxanti autO ta panta hina E ho theos ta panta en pasin
whenever {3752 CONJ} yet {1161 CONJ} there should be under-arranged {5293 V-2APS-3S} unto~same [One] {0846 P-DSM} the [things] {3588 T-NPN} all [things] {3956 A-NPN} then {5119 ADV} also {2532 CONJ} same [One] {0846 P-NSM} the [One] {3588 T-NSM} Son {5207 N-NSM} He will be under-arranged {5293 V-2FPI-3S} unto~the [One] {3588 T-DSM} unto~having under-arranged {5293 V-AAP-DSM} unto~same [One] {0846 P-DSM} to~the [things] {3588 T-APN} to~all [things] {3956 A-APN} so-that {2443 CONJ} He should be {1510 V-PAS-3S} the [One] {3588 T-NSM} God {2316 N-NSM} the [things] {3588 T-NPN} all [things] {3956 A-NPN} among/ in {1722 PREP} unto~all [things] {3956 A-DPN}
(Robin)
Interesting … that is, you’re suggesting that we have to mentally set what’s said here, within the surrounding context, in order to differentiate these “living and dead ones” from both us (the Body of Christ) … and … from those (the multitude) at the Great White Throne judgement?
“… to~living [ones], and to~dead [ones] pending to judge,
according-to the at-manifestation of~Same, and to~the kingdom of~Same …”
However, the problem I see with this, is that if this is something that takes place at Christ’s coming (His coming down to the earth, as distinguished from our meetinmg Him in the air) … that is, His judging and/or separating the good and bad nations right after His earthly advent,
then how does this particular judging involve “dead ones” … (both the living and dead ones)?
That is, again, this verse from Timothy seems to interject an additional judging of the dead, prior to the Great White Throne (GWT) … now I suppose this could be explained as the judging of the living and past dead of Israel; that is, the raising of those for a judgement prior to them then being giving positions of authority in the coming 1000 year eonian Kingdom on earth … That would, indeed, make sense; however, here’s the problem with that …
Why would Paul be telling us, the Body of Christ about this … why is Paul telling Timothy about this, when this wouldn’t have anything to do with the gospel that Timothy was suppose to be hearalding to the nations? That is, this verse makes good sense if we “set” it in the context of
what Christ is going to do with Israel when He comes again, to earth, but then it also sort of takes the epistle of Timothy out of the context of something intended for our application … makes for good edification, but not for any application to the Body of Christ … Ummmm?
Hi Robin,
You wrote: “Interesting … that is, you’re suggesting that we have to mentally set what’s said here, within the surrounding context, in order to differentiate these “living and dead ones” from both us (the Body of Christ) … and … from those (the multitude) at the Great White Throne judgement?”
Right. Context (as you well know) is pretty essential to one’s coming to a right understanding of anything spoken or written. And I think Paul’s thoughts were, at this point in his letter, focused on the state of affairs that would characterize humanity in the “last days,” leading all the way to the advent of Christ at the end of the eon. As in 2 Thess. 1:6-10 and 2:6-12, the event that Paul had in view in 2 Tim. 4:1 is not, I don’t think, something that the saints in the body of Christ will be involved in (at least, not directly, and in the same way that the “living and dead” Paul had in view will be). Does this mean it’s not written for our edification? No – or, at least, it’s no less edifying than anything else Paul wrote concerning the future fate of unbelievers (or of Israel) at the end of this eon and beyond.
Robin: “However, the problem I see with this, is that if this is something that takes place at Christ’s coming (His coming down to the earth, as distinguished from our meetinmg Him in the air) … that is, His judging and/or separating the good and bad nations right after His earthly advent, then how does this particular judging involve “dead ones” … (both the living and dead ones)?”
Well, first, I don’t think we have to have a precise understanding of what this judgment will consist of in order to believe that it won’t involve the saints in the body of Christ. Peter (twice) used similar wording to refer to something that (I think) you would agree has nothing directly to do with those in the body of Christ (Acts 10:42; 1 Pet. 4:5). Given the similar wording in these verses and in 2 Tim 4:1, I think it’s reasonable to conclude that they all have the same event(s) and time period in view. Another fact to consider is that, in Rev. 11:18, we find a similar reference to the dead being judged – and (in harmony with my interpretation of 2 Tim. 4:1), the judgment in view is clearly one that is connected with events surrounding Christ’s return to earth at the end of the eon (after the sounding of the 7th trumpet). So there was clearly a strong connection in the minds of the apostles between Christ’s judgment of the living at the end of this eon, and the judgment of the dead. So assuming Paul had in view Christ’s “second coming” in 1 Tim. 4:1, it would be natural for him to refer to Christ’s judgment of not only the living but also the dead, even though the judgment of both categories of people will be separated by a period of time. The future judgment of the living and of the dead is part of a single future “era,” and can thus be naturally grouped together when the advent of Christ at the end of the eon is in view.
“Why would Paul be telling us, the Body of Christ about this … why is Paul telling Timothy about this, when this wouldn’t have anything to do with the gospel that Timothy was suppose to be hearalding to the nations? That is, this verse makes good sense if we “set” it in the context of
what Christ is going to do with Israel when He comes again, to earth, but then it also sort of takes the epistle of Timothy out of the context of something intended for our application … makes for good edification, but not for any application to the Body of Christ … Ummmm?”
I think I’ve answered this question in previous comments, but I’ll just add some additional remarks for further clarification: Not everything Paul wrote to the saints in the body of Christ is directly applicable to us (i.e., it doesn’t necessarily refer to events that will directly involve us). I’m sure you could think of more examples than the ones I’ve already provided, and I think Paul’s reference to the advent of Christ and his kingdom is simply one such example. Paul’s reference to this event is not arbitrary; rather, Paul’s “point” in referencing this event can be understood as follows: In view of this future event, Timothy needed to be doing the things Paul referred to (i.e., heralding the word, expose, rebuke, entreat, do the work of an evangelist, etc.). By faithfully discharging his service, Timothy would, perhaps, be instrumental in bringing individuals to a knowledge of the truth and thereby sparing them from the judgment that is to come upon this world during the time preceding and following Christ’s return to earth.
Ahhhh … perhaps I should have phrased my question more clearly; that is, it wasn’t really about the ability or not to actually stand; rather the real question was, to what standard might a pre-born, or small infant be “judged” … and Yes, I dont equated judgement with doom, but rather with some sort of positive correction.
And then, as long as we’re delving into this, if … if one holds with the pastoral epistles really being written by Paul, then how does the pending judgement talked to in 2Timothy, square with the fact that we, in Christ, are not to be judged? There’s some food for thought, and perhaps a few good reasons for further Zender talks on this particular subject matter … (that is, “leave it at that” dont fly for some of us)
4:1* Therefore I, I thoroughly-testify in-sight of~the God, and of~the Lord Anointed Yeshua, the [One] to~living [ones], and to~dead [ones] pending to judge, according-to the at-manifestation of~Same, and to~the kingdom of~Same.” (~Robin; my own reading from the Byzantine Greek)
And, Aaron, might you be interested in further discussions with me, concerning the translation of Paul’s epistles? I’ll give you my email, here, but this is most likely not a good idea, but what the heck! robinriley39@gmail.com
Oh, okay. Well, as I understand it, the words “judge” and “judgment” are completely *neutral* with regards to whether “positive correction,” retribution, recompense (etc.) is involved. The basic idea, as I understand it, is simply that of something being set right through the decision (the passing of a sentence or verdict) of a superior authority. This could certainly involve “positive correction” of some sort, but it need not in every circumstance.
With regards to pre-born/infants, Scripture speaks of this category of human beings as having no knowledge of good and evil (Deut. 1:39; Isaiah 7:15-16) and as being “innocents” (Jer. 19:4). Christ also spoke of little children as follows: “Let the little children be coming to Me, and do not forbid them, for of such is the kingdom of the heavens” (Matt. 19:14; cf. Mark 10:13-16; Luke 18:16-17). So it would seem that, since they don’t fall into the category of those who, by the standard according to which people will be judged at the GWT, will deserve to be cast into the lake of fire, pre-born humans/infants will all qualify for eonian life in the kingdom, on the new earth during the final eon. If that’s the case, then God’s judgment of pre-born humans/infants will simply be his verdict that they get to enjoy life on the new earth.
I could be wrong, of course, but this scenario at least seems reasonable and to have as much scriptural support as any other theory (if not more). In any case, I know that whatever happens to this category of humans, it will be for their best and that God’s judicial decision or “judgment” concerning them will have the best interests of everyone in mind!
With regards to 2 Tim 4:1, the larger context in which Paul “conjured” Timothy (or “thoroughly-testified,” as you prefer) clearly involves a coming era of apostasy, in which people will not tolerate sound teaching (v. 3) and will have a form of devoutness while denying its power (cf. 3:5). It also involves Timothy’s heralding the word and doing the work of an evangelist (4:2, 5). Given this particular context, it’s my understanding that, in 4:1, Paul had in mind that future advent of Christ which will deal decisively with those who, at the time of this advent (and perhaps as a consequence of the apostasy Paul had in mind), will not be “acquainted with God” and will not be “obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thess. 1:7-9). Paul is, in other words, talking about the judgment by Christ of those who will be on the earth when Christ returns at the end of the eon, to set up his kingdom on the earth. At least, that’s how I understand it.
Hey, I’ve wondered the same thing, Robin. What I’ve (speculatively) concluded is that pre-born children and infants who died will simply be raised by God with bodies developmentally mature enough to enable them to stand before God at the GWT judgment – that is, if standing will even be necessary for this category of humans (perhaps they’ll simply be held by celestial beings)! Who knows. What I do know is that there have been plenty of people who died as adults who weren’t able to stand in this lifetime, but I have no doubt that God is able to raise them with a physically sound body that will enable them to stand at this time. And if God can do that for all physically disabled people, then why not for those who weren’t old enough to stand when they died?
Immortal bodies…leave it at that.
1 Corinthians 8:2
Ummmmmm … And then, I suppose the dead babies also “stand” before the Great White Throne;
and the alost born babies “stand” too … Ummmm?
When we are taken away, what effect will our disappearance have on those left behind? Would we appear to them as having died or do we just vanish?
Good questions. Paul seems to reveal that our body (i.e., the “organic substance” that constitutes us as human beings) will undergo a radical change just prior to our meeting Christ in the air (Phil. 3:21; cf. 1 Cor. 15:42-53). Based on this, I think we can conclude that the living saints at this time won’t be leaving behind a corpse. Assuming there will be witnesses to a saint’s being snatched away (which may or may not be the case), then I suspect that the “vanishing” view you suggest will be closer to what will be observed.
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