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Revelation Series #595: The Second Death is Literal
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{ 10 comments… read them below or add one }
Thank you, dear Robin for your thoughts.
I sort of agree with you as to your disparaging remarks on my character. But it is much worse than that. 🙂 Such God saves. We are a motley crew. “Not many wise or noble God chooses.
I wish you the best in Christ.
(Robin)
Evening Tony … it’s raining here, at 0230 something in the morning, and I’m wondering just what God means by “joy” … there’s physical joy, of course, which is easily understood, but what does God mean with such a word? He apparently wishes such a gift upon those of us within the Body of Christ, but … admit it, Tony, you know any such person, who has this spiritual attribute?
Honestly, I don’t expect you to put any thought into the question … but it is a valid question, nevertheless … Frankly, Tony, I’m of the impression … long time confirmed, that the current Body of Christ is a crippled, incompetent, un-empathetic, love-less disaster (I’d nominate you, Tony, as the “poster child,” but you’re really no different than the rest of us … oh well).
But Marting was trying to show that where there is a figurative death, there is a literal death too.
(Robin)
Ahh, Tony, we’ve no argument there … it was only my observation that the CLNT could be improved upon, that provoked your subsequent comments. And, surely, it can be improved upon, adjusted and updated after all these years of allowing it to lay fallow and faulty. Again,
I strongly suspect that the “concordant people” in charge of the CLNT are shy and sensitive to acknowledging any need for improvements because they feel that it would be seen as a negative critique of their cult figure’s efforts …. Tell me true, Tony, have you not, always, resisted any and every attempt to “improve” the CLNT; so one has to, at least, wonder, if this resistance is actually guarding of truth, or merely cult worship? (Note: I’ve watched you “concordant people” doing this cult worship for decades).
Knoch said the CLNT could always be improved upon. There are improvements of the translation through the years, you know. Currently we are re-typsetting the CLNT to fit the size of the Old Testament and, while we are at it, we are making some grammatical improvements on the 2nd aorist along with some other changes.
So I’m not sure why you feel the need to make disparaging remarks. concerning “cult figure.” But if it makes you feel good to put others down, that’s okay. God knows our hearts.
Obviously Robin doesn’t understand the difference between a version that is trying to be idiomatic and ultra-literal.
The CLNT should be embraced rather than held at a distance. It was never said to be perfect and in fact, it isn’t. But what it is is a whole lot better than other translations out there.
But, aside from that, Martin hit the proverbial nail on the head. Robin, he was just trying to show that “dead” does not always mean “dead” as being literally dead. That was the point he was trying to make in quoting Ephesians 5:14. Try to stick with the subject. That’s the important thing. It is taking away from the point by castigating A.E. Knoch and trying to give us a grammar lesson. Geesh!
(Robin)
Not that it deters, one way or the other, from what you were saying, Martin, but since you were trying to delve into the details of this verse … let’s do the details:
1) First Ephesians 5:14 is a quote from Isa 60:1-2 …
2) The CLNT isn’t always correct, even if it’s only a matter of minor detail …
that is, it doesn’t say “drowsy one,” rather it’s the singular article (“the [one]”), and the particle (not adjective) “drowsing” … “the [one] drowsing” … “ho katheudOn”
3)The CLNT is a good reading/translation, but it’s not always something you can hang your hat on, without looking deeper … A.E.K had his problems, and let’s not make a cult figure out of him.
4) The CLNT is fuzzy with it’s treatment of verve … does this matter; perhaps … but this verse does not start out saying, “Wherefore, He is saying” …
rather, it actually says, “Through-which He says” …
5) The verb “egeire” does not simply say “Rouse,”
but rather it’s the second person imperative, “be you rousing”
6) The verb “anasta” does not simply say “rise”,
but rather it’s the second person imperative, “be you up-standing”
7) The CLNT editorially adds the preposition “from,” when the actual word is “out,”
and there is no justification for their light-print addition of “[amomg],” when the verse most clearly should be read as, …”out of~the dead [ones]” …
8) I’m not sure how the CLNT comes to reading “shall dawn” from “epiphausel” … that is, it does not say that, rather, it says, “He will on-appear”
My point, dear Martin, is that if you are going to delve into what the Greek text actually says, then you should hold the CLNT at some distance, because even though it’s not a bad translation, it’s not necessarily a good one, either. That is, again, when we get down into the weeds, of what the scriptures actually say, then we need to be more careful … and not just repeat what some almost good translation says, but rather, teach the Body of Christ to dig deep into what God’s word actually are … There can’t be anything but a positive side to such an endeavor, even if it’s boring,
to some of us, it’s still a very valid and uplifting exercise to practise.
“5:13 Yet, to~all the [things] being exposed, it be manifested under the light; for the [thing] being manifested, it be the light.
5:14 Through-which He says: BE YOU ROUSING, THE [ONE] DROWSING, AND BE YOU UP-STANDING, OUT OF~THE DEAD [ONES], AND THE ANOINTED WILL ON-APPEAR UNTO~YOU.” (~Robin)
Here’s another one for figurative death:
“Now one really a widow, and alone, relies on God and is remaining in petitions and prayers night and day.” Yet she who is a prodigal, though living, is dead” (1Ti 5:5-6).
The former widow is alive to God because she is remaining in petitions and prayers [to God] night and day.
The prodigaling widow, is one who has money such that she has no need of God. The is prodigaling (spending freely and foolishly) her wealth but in “church” she puts on a fair face in the flesh and knows the “church” lingo. But if we supply the elipsis “to God” we see the problem: Yet she who is prodigaling, though living, is dead [to God.]
So outwardly it LOOKS like she is living [to God] but actually, according to her lifestyle, is dead [to God].
(Robin)
It’s very edifying when Martin pauses to teach us some of the grammar behind God’s words;
I wish this might be done more often, because it not only helps to bring out the immediate points of the lesson, but also, helps us learn to read God’s words more carefully and closely.
As for your suggested elipsis (v. 5:6), Tony, I don’t think it necessary, since this (to~the God) is already, actually stated in the previous verse; and I wasn’t castigating the CLNT compiler,
or the CLNT, just saying that there are any number of places where these are too casually skipped over, or ignored, perhaps, so as to not to be construed as some critique of AEK …
5:5* Yet, the [one] really a~widow, and having had been alone, to~the God she has had expected, and night and day she toward-abides with~the petitions, and with~the prayers
5:6 Yet the [one] squandering [while] living, she has had died. (~Robin)
Right, Martin! Let’s assume some are correct that the second death is a second life but that these people are figuratively DEAD TO GOD. It is said they are dead for the duration of the eons of the eons. So it would be futile trying to resuscitate these people to be alive to God during this time limit of their death.
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